Ask The Water Doctor

Brenda asked:

“I have had salt based water softeners in the past and loved them. I now live in a multi-story townhouse, the water source to the unit is in the front, the HOA will not allow a water softener unit in the front. I considered the saltless system because it is smaller and I could possibly hide it, I ‘m still considering it. Another option is to put whatever I get in the garage with the tankless hot water units, meaning only my hot water will be soft. Will this be enough to do anything for my appliances or my skin?”

The Water Doctor Replied:

Putting a water softener only on the hot water is kind of like putting one foot in ice water and the other in boiling water – on the average you won’t like the experience! In your case, I would recommend a saltfree water conditioner. While it may not rise to the level of a water softener (using salt), it will protect your appliances and the carbon filter in the Green Wave Cascade will reduce or remove the chemicals and chlorine which are skin irritants.

Here’s what I would recommend:
http://www.uswatersystems.com/shop/products/10-GPM-GreenWave-Cascade-No%252dSalt,-Non%252dElectric,-No-Waste,-Anti%252dScale-Water-Conditioner.html

Amanda asked this question:

We have very hard water where I live and have had many issues with mineral build-up in our toilets, showers, sinks, etc. I am also a major water snob and strongly prefer to only drink & cook with RO filtered water because our city water is loaded with chlorine (and who knows what else). I have an under the sink Watts 5 step RO system currently that runs to my sink & I also ran a line to my fridge/icemaker, but we are moving to a new home & the fridge will no longer be able to connect to the RO system because of placement.

Would you recommend a softener or a conditioner for really hard water instead of whole house RO and if so, do you have a preferred model of each type to recommend? I think I would rather not deal with salt pellets, etc, but if softening is much better than conditioning, I can deal with it I guess. Thanks for your guidance. I am so worried about making the wrong decision because none of these options are inexpensive–I want to get it right the first time.

The Water Doctor replied:

First of all, I would not generally recommend a whole-house RO system unless there is some other major reason why you would want it. If the water is hard, you would still need to soften it with a water softener or a good salt-free water conditioner anyway. If you are really a major water snob, then I would recommend a hybrid water softener like this:
http://www.uswatersystems.com/shop/categories/Water-Softeners/Fusion-Hybrid-Water-Softeners/

It not only softens the water for the whole house, but also reduces or removes the chlorine and other chemicals. I suspect that you drink RO water because you don’t want the chlorine and chemicals in your drinking water, but did you know that you absorb more chemicals and chlorine through your skin and through inhalation (vaporization) in a 20 minute shower than you could ever drink?

Additionally, modern RO technology has produced residential RO systems for drinking water which waste 80% less water than a regular reverse osmosis system. It is called a “permeate pump” RO and it also makes water faster, makes higher quality water and delivers the water at the same pressure as your incoming line pressure (most RO system lose 35% pressure). Here’s a link to one:
http://www.uswatersystems.com/shop/products/50%252dGPD-US-Water-Systems-High-Pressure-Permeate-Pump-System-w%7B47%7D4-Gallon-Tank.html

Angel asked:

“Shopping around for salt-less systems and found Pelican NaturSoft System has been tested and fulfilled the requirements of the W512. I pulled this statement off there website, what do you think between Pelician and USwatersystems (GreenWave)?

The Water Doctor Replied:

Well, the fact that we (US Water) sell the GreenWave and not Pelican should say enough about it. I also believe that DVGW-512 is of no value. The Pelican system is “Third Party-Tested.” What does that mean? It could mean that they gave someone some money to test it and they said it was great. As it stands right now, there is no Certification, Testing or Validation of Salt-less or Salt-free water conditioning systems by any credible testing facility. The DVGW-512 standard is dubious, at best. (See previous post)

Deanna asks:
I would like to know what causes water to smell like rotten eggs. My neighbor down two doors from me is having this problem. The only source of water to their house comes from a well. I notice this every time I turn their outside faucet on to water her garden and or turn on her faucets within the house. It all smells like rotten egss. They of course do not consume the water.
Can you tell me why and what I can do about eliminating the awful smell of rotten eggs.

The Water Doctor Replied:

It sounds like you have sulfur (hydrogen sulfide) or sulfate-reducing bacteria in your water. Either way, you treat it the same. When treating for Sulfur or Hydrogen Sulfide in your water, it is imperative that a good analysis of the water be performed. Not just for sulfur, but for a number of other contaminants, including hardness, pH, manganese, sulfur, TDS and others. The inter-relationships of the different contaminats will help in chosing the best technology to solve your problem.

With a Detailed Laboratory Analysis, I will be able to confidently recommend the appropriate treatment and will provide a Performance Guarantee with the system. Sulfur is generally measured in parts per million or ppm. It is not considered hazardous to health. Sulfur is considered a secondary or aesthetic contaminant. The present recommended limit for sulfur in water, 0.3 mg/l (ppm), is based on taste and appearance rather than on any detrimental health effect. Private water supplies are not subject to the rules, but the guidelines can be used to evaluate water quality.

Sulfur in wells generally does not cause health problems, but can have the following unpleasant and possibly expensive effects:

* Cause odors
* Corrode plumbing equipment
* Reduce well yields by clogging screens and pipes
* Increase chances of sulfur bacteria infestation

There are many ways by which sulfur can be removed from the water and most operate on the principal of oxidizing the sulfur (oxidation) to convert it from a gas to a solid or undissolved state. Once in the solid state, sulfur can be filtered. There are many ways to do this but I prefer Filox or Hydrogen Peroxide.

Here’s a link to various methods of removing the sulfur or rotten-egg odor:
http://www.uswatersystems.com/shop/categories/Problem-Water/Sulfur-Removal-H2S/

Mike asks:

I have well water and have had several negative tests for coliform or e-coli bacteria.  I have shock chlorinated the well, but it keeps coming back.  What should I do?

The Water Doctor Answered:

QUESTION

Below is the claim from LifeSource: “Think a water softener is the best choice to solve hard water problems? Think again! You can alleviate hard water problems without using a salt based water softener. A water softener merely exchanges hardness minerals with sodium. Instead of hard water problems you’ll have salt water problems.

LifeSource Whole-House Water Systems are the clear alternative to common water softeners. Our Systems are Tested, Certified and maintenance free.

Finally you’ll have clean great tasting water for your entire home from a single long-lasting, maintenance free system. You’ll also notice fewer problems caused by hard water without using salts or chemicals. “

Please give me your advice about this system.

Is it the same with GreenWave salt Free system that you have on your website?

I am looking  a system that can get rid of the hard water problems, skin itchy problems, and safety for kids with special medical condition.

Thank you for your time. – Huyen Pham

THE WATER DOCTOR REPLIED:

An acquaintance of mine reported this about the BEOTRON Water Conditioning Component of the Lifesource system:

This was once hyped as a device for treating water that employed strange and almost-magical forces, but the current promoter has now toned down the hype. A 2008 engineering publication describes the “dissection” of this unit, revealing it is a worthless deception: “The Beotron unit is a PVC tube capped at both ends and filled with sand and a copper wire running down the center. The water does not flow through the tube, and none of the water comes into contact with the sand and the copper.”

The Lifesource unit is a carbon filter.   That’s it.   Nothing more or less.  You can buy a GreenWave Ultra Carbon Filter for 1/3 of the cost of a Lifesourse system.  My opinion of Lifesource is that it is nothing like what they hype it to be.  It’s a good product, but way overpriced.  Carbon filters are for the purpose of removing chlorine, chemicals, tastes and odors from the water.   A GreenWave Ultra does that just as well as any other carbon filter, including Lifesource.

Some of the advantages of a GreenWave Ultra whole-house carbon filter are:

• Reduces or removes the chlorine and chemicals for better-tasting, high quality water throughout the home – you don’t just have one faucet to drink from – you have quality water anywhere.
• Some people say that they don’t want to drink chlorinated water, but then turn around and take a shower in that water, not realizing that they absorb more chlorine through their skin and inhale more from vaporization, than they could ever drink in a day.
• Chlorine attacks faucet, toilet, appliance and plumbing parts that have rubber, dramatically degrading it.  With de-chlorinated water, you home will run smoother, longer and with less maintenance.
• 9 out 0f 10 dogs and cats prefer chlorine-free, chemical free, great-tasting water.  The 10th one?  We won’t go there….

More and more people are wondering if it really exists?   DVGW-512 is allegedly the standard for testing salt-free water treatment systems.  In fact, one company (WATTS) is claiming (in a convoluted, round-about way) that their product is approved by DVGW-512.  Check out this LINK if you want proof.  While they don’t actually “LIE” they lead you to believe that their product is 99.6%  effective (as stated in the test).

There are a couple of issues here, not the least of which is that the testing was done on the ORIGINAL MEDIA, but they are no longer producing the original media (from nextScaleStop).  They claim it is better.  I remain unconvinced.  In fact, we have had more failures of their new media than their older media (and we had plenty of failures of that media as well).

Let’s not beat around the bush, the media in Watts One Flow is nextScaleStop media – they are one and the same!

Pelican uses the DVGW-512 standard in their website, but it turns out it is “Third Party-Tested.”  What does that mean?  It could mean that they gave someone some money to test it and they said it was great.  But what do you expect from a company who says that their system delivers “naturally softened water,“  which is totally false!  Naturally softened water?  Where did they get that?  Look it up!   According to one of the leading water experts in the country:

Naturally soft water supplies have a paucity of any dissolved minerals, or an absence of total dissolved solids (TDS), an excess of carbon dioxide over alkalinity, and generally, a low pH.

Does Pelican do that?  Hardly!  When they start with something that is not true, how much can you believe?  However, I digress.  Here’s the deal:  I think the population can be divided into three thirds:

1. People who won’t believe anything.  You could tell them that the sun will rise tomorrow and they would doubt you;
2. People who will believe everything.  I can tell them I am Elvis and they will believe it (this is the “lunatic fringe.”); and
3. People who are “open” or receptive to new and better things, if they work.

Salt-free systems are sold to to people in groups #2 and #3, which means that 50% of the customers are automatically satisfied because they will believe anything you tell them (they have been on the spaceship and have seen the little green men).   These people frequently write glowing testimonials about how wonderful a product is, but if you visited their residence, you might be shocked.

What about the other third – the ones who are receptive, but not in the lunatic fringe?   These are rational people who often want to be “green” or do not like carrying salt for their water softeners, but make no mistake, they are not any one’s fool!  I have no hard evidence, but from what I have seen,  about half of these people are happy with the salt-free water treatment systems.  50%!  That’s a pretty low satisfaction rating.

Bear with me.  Do the math.  50% of the people who buy salt-free systems to are in the lunatic fringe (100% customer satosfaction)  and 50% are receptive (50% customer satisfaction), which means that 25% of the customers have to be refunded.  What these companies do, is build in the returns into the price and sell them all day long, knowing that they will have to refund 25%, but the other 75% brings them big profits.

Fundamentally, I have a problem with pleasing the customer 75% of the time – that’s too low!

Is there validity to salt free systems using nextScaleStop and Filtersorb SP3?  Yes and since nextScaleStop has changed their formula, I believe that Filtersorb and nextScaleStop are  now nearly identical in performance.  Ask Watts.  They use both Next and Filtersorb. I will be the first to say that I believe they are equal in performance.

Pelican?  I have no clue what they use and they aren’t telling anyone.  That worries me…

One of the most popular products in the water treatment business is the GE Merlin 700 Gallon Per Day Reverse Osmosis System.  It delivers nearly a half gallon a minute under ideal conditions.  Consumers hear that it is “tankless” and assume it is better than other “tank-type” RO’s and is the latest and greatest in reverse osmosis technology.  While it is an amazing piece of equipment, it does have issues.  First of all, let’s talk about its’ good points.

1. It makes lots of water and does it economically, so if you brew beer, do reef-keeping, have a salt water aquarium, greenhouse of do hydroponics, the Merlin is hard to beat, especially if you need hundreds of gallons of water a day.
2. The more you use a Merlin, the better the water is.
3. The initial cost is very low and it is downright impossible to find any reverse osmosis system that can produce this much water at such a low price.

Now, the drawbacks of a Merlin:

1. If you use only a few gallons of water a day, the odds are that the water quality will be wretched unless you use a “flush tank,” because of TDS Creep.  The flush tank surrounds the GE Merlin Membranes with RO water to prevent the TDS creep, but it also causes the Merlin to use a lot more water (it will waste 4-5 gallons each time it fills the flush tank, which is every time you turn on the faucet – If you get a drink 10 times a day, you will waste about 50 gallons of water for those 10 glasses!).
2. The Merlin has problems shutting off.  In other words, after you have stopped using water, and the Merlin should shut-down, it doesn’t!  Instead, it just runs to drain and may waste hundreds of gallons of water a day.  We have an inordinate amount of Merlins that are sent back because of this.
3. It sounds like a “freight train” when it is making water!

Here’s an actual case study with a GE Merlin.  We installed a GE Merlin under the kitchen sink for a man in Brownsburg, Indiana, which has a TDS (total dissolved solids) level of 520.  He kept complaining of “cloudy ice cubes.”  So, we went to his home after the RO had sat unused all day.  We tested the first glass of water and it was 415 PPM.  Here are the rest of the results:

• After 1 minute -   346 PPM
• After 2 minutes – 278 PPM
• After 3 Minutes – 191 PPM
• After 4 Minutes -   96 PPM
• After 5 Minutes -   19 PPM (Pretty good water, but who wants to wait 5 minutes for a glass?)

Now, this could be solved by a “flush tank,” but in this case, the homeowner said “Why do that?”  So, we put in a permeate pump RO system (which delivers the same amount of pressure out the faucet as you have coming in), which always delivers less than 20 PPM, with better pressure and much less waste water.  Another thing to think about is that the GE Merlin Membranes cost about $200.00 to replace, while you can buy a membrane for the permeate pump RO for less than $30.00.

• More Pressure
• Less Waste
• Better Water Quality
• Lower Operational Costs

What’s not to like?  That’s why I have a (non-electric) permeate pump RO in my house.

Now, we also find out that GE or Pentair is going to discontinue the Merlin and introduce a new and improved Merlin.  Yes, product failure is part of the reason they are introducing it, but the main reason is that they want to eliminate Internet sales of this product and are only going to give it to a limited number of distributors, who won’t sell it on the WEB.  They want to line their distributors pockets with money while sticking it to the consumer… again!

Necessity is the mother of Invention.  Watch and see why this will be a mistake for Pentair.

A few days ago, I had a customer call me who said “Why did you install a salt-based water softener in my house?  There is a technician here from A Plumbing Company who says that’s the old-fashioned way and that I should soften it the new way with ‘Easy Water.’”

I don’t respond well to situations like that (where the guy who said it is obviously an ignoramus or a liar), so I simply said “Well, whoever said that is an ignoramus or a liar.” I’m not very good at being politically correct – I just call it the way I see it.  No reason to “sugar-coat” the truth.

Easy Water doesn’t soften water – far from it.  Easy Water uses Radio Frequency (RF) to prevent scale (that’s what they write, but if you talk to some people who sell it, they might convince you it will prevent or cure cancer).  It works to some degree, sometimes (in every lie there is an element of truth).

However, when a service technician from a company is in a customer’s home (a position of trust) and says “you still use THAT to soften?” when the fact of the matter is that Easy Water does not soften water, well that is totally dishonest.

All across the Internet, the claims are proliferating regarding salt-free (salt-less) water conditioners (if you have read previous blog entries you know that my argument is that there is no such thing as a salt-free conditioner).  It seems like there are a dozen or more new players entering the arena every day.  The price of admission is low – generally there are no certifications, licenses or testing involved.  Consumers see some salt-free companies exhibiting the Water Quality Association (WQA) “Gold Seal” and mistakenly believe that this seal constitutes some type of product endorsement, testing or certification as to functionality.  Sadly, they are mistaken.  The above graphic was taken from one such company’s website.  Does that mean that their product is proven to work?  Absolutely not!  To find out what the WQA Gold Seal means, click HERE.   On the WQA’s site they specifically say:

Disclaimer:
Listing in these directories does not constitute an endorsement, guarantee, or warranty of any kind by the Water Quality Association or its members of any of the products contained in them.

Don’t be mislead – the WQA seal on a “Salt-Free” or “Salt less” water treatment device simply means that the product has been tested for structural integrity and that it will not add anything detrimental to the water supply.  THERE IS NOTHING THAT ENDORSES THE PRODUCTS FUNCTIONALITY.

Personally, I believe that calling these products “softeners” brands the seller as a charlatan because they do not in fact, soften the water. An argument can be made that they “condition” the water, but that is also deceptive in my opinion.  Most people who have hard water use the words “softener” and “conditioner” interchangeably.

There are magnetic devices, RF (Radio Frequency) devices and other types of mechanical water treatment devices which have some effect upon the water molecules and (to varying degrees, depending upon water chemistry) prevent scale.  I know of no such device that “softens” the water without salt or potassium. If I am wrong, then here your forum to prove it.

Many such devices do nothing to remove chemicals, chlorine and the like, and others which do, make only a minimal effort.   Carbon filtration has proven very effective at removing these chemicals and most companies who sell salt-free products at least attempt to offer carbon filtration as a part of their “system.”    Again, how well they function depends upon the design (back-washing vs. non-back-washing, amount and type of carbon, and other factors).

The best advice I can give when it comes to a salt-free water treatment system is to buy it from a company who obviously has a “full-line” of water treatment products.  All water is not the same and even the BEST salt-free system does not work on all water.  Deal with a company who can provide a “solution,” not just a product.   A “one-trick pony” company is not the way to better water. There needs to be regulation and certification of these devices.  Until then, it’s still, let the buyer beware!