Ask The Water Doctor

Kevin asked:

Is there any merit to this product; http://www.carefree.com.au/how-it-works.aspx ? It looks from their real world testing that it is effective…

The Water Doctor Responded:

I went to their website and here is what they say:

“By applying a simple, yet totally natural water treatment process, the Care-Free Water Conditioner helps neutralize the adverse effects of many of the undesirable substances in your water supply.

The Care-Free Water Conditioner is an in-line catalytic water treatment system. It operates by a combination of the following:

1. Turbulence of the water through a specially designed catalytic chamber.

2. By the creation of a small electrical field around the chamber casing.

This combination causes a separation of the mineral particles in the water, which changes their behaviour.

Particles, which were previously attracted to each other now repel and separate into smaller individual particles. This allows the “separated” mineral particles and salts to flow through the system with minimal interference.

Corrosive gases are released during conditioning and move through the water as harmless bubbles. They are expelled into the atmosphere when water leaves the tap.

To put it simply, the Care-Free Conditioner eliminates the cohesion that exists between the mineral particles in the water.

This is clearly seen in the before and after photos.

These photos reveal mineral particles precipitated from “the same water sample” with a reading of 750mg/l hardness.

Note how the particles are bound together before Care-Free treatment and “separated” after treatment.

You can compare this reduction in micron size from the size of your fist to the size of your fingernail.”

Vibrations, energy fields, and vortexes are stock-in-trade in the snake-oil business, owing probably to the fact that in the ill-defined contexts in which they typically appear, they are basically meaningless but convey enough mystery to appeal to the credulous public.  I won’t waste much time on this one, because none of that nonsense makes any sense.

Tamara asked:

“Why would we be getting green staining and scale buildup? We have a mutual water company supplying the water, with no elevated levels of anything- slightly alkaline dissolved solids of 30.  For 8 years we have been renting a water softener, charcoal filter and R/O system ($67/month). Plumber claims we should not be getting these kinds of problems which could lead to leaks in copper plumbing.”

The Water Doctor Responded:

I think you should test your treated water:

1. Green stains are often a sign of electrolysis, which is when copper is being leached from the copper tubing.  It will eventually cause leaks.  You need to have your “treated water” tested for copper; and
2. If your water softener is working properly, you should not have any scale.  It may not be working properly or is not programmed correctly.

By the way, you have spent almost $6,500.00 on your rental equipment which you indicate is less than satisfactory.  Renting equipment is a great deal… for the water treatment dealer, but bad for the consumer!

Back on the subject of salt-less water softeners or salt-free water conditioners, Rick Rhodes wrote:

Hmmm, here you say that the DVGW-512 standard is of no value, yet in 2007 you wrote:

The German Technical and Scientific Association for Gas and Water (DVGW) has developed protocol for testing scale prevention properties of these types of devices. This testing protocol is called DVGW Standard W 512.

In order to be certified by this agency, a device must reach the threshold of being at least 80% efficient. There are several devices throughout the world which are certified as being at least 80% efficient, but to my knowledge, there is only one such device in the USA that achieves this level of efficiency, that being nextScaleStop manufactured by next Filtration Technologies, Inc. of Incline Village, Nevada and that is the product we handle. We sell it under the brand name “Green Wave.”

I suspect too many competitors met this standard in 2007-2010, so you decided it’s worthless.

Too many witch doctors in this business for my taste. (puns intended)

The Water Doctor Replied:

I have never been called a “witch doctor”. That’s pretty cool! Maybe it’s my fault that I didn’t go back and “edit” what I wrote in 2007, but I think it’s good to see how things “evolve.” This blog has spanned several years and technology always changes. Products change and companies change. During that time, I have gathered more knowledge, completed more scientific testing, launched investigations into many other products, and as a result, I have adjusted my thinking thinking accordingly. Are you suggesting that doctors who used to use leaches to suck the bad blood out of patients years ago, should have continued doing that because after all, they did it once? I reserve the right to change my mind, and I think most intelligent people do the same.

However, I will FULLY explain why, I changed my opinion and why we no longer use nextScaleStop media. First of all, shortly after I wrote that in 2007, I discovered that the production of the original nextScaleStop media, which was certified by DVGW-512 and allegedly was tested as 99.6% efficient was no longer being used, for whatever reason. This was not publicized by nextScaleStop, and they continued to lean heavily on that DVGW-512 certification, even though the new media was of an entirely different composition as the original medi,a and in fact, looked dramatically different! We begin experiencing failures of both the old media and the new media which I felt were unacceptable. It was during that period that we discontinued using the media from nextScaleStop and for nearly two years we have used our new 4.5 MEP Media with much better success. In fact, we can count our failures on one hand.

It is not my intent to speak badly of nextScaleStop, but you asked the question and I have answered it. In fact, I have heard that nextScaleStop is no longer using the media that they used after switching from the DVGW-512 media. Yet, in their Watts One-Flow literature, they continue to refer to the DVGW-512, which is no longer applicable and more than a tad misleading. Here’s what they say in their literature:

Standards
DVGW – German Technical and Scientific Association for Gas & Water
OneFlow® meets standard W-512 for testing Physical Water Treatment devices for Scale Prevention and achieved an efficiency rating of 99.6% for scale prevention.

If they have re-tested this media and have certification, then they have failed to tell me or most other people who are in the know about these things. If I am wrong about this, then this is an excellent opportunity for them to set the record straight. If not, then Watts should remove the above from their literature.

You also said:

I suspect too many competitors met this standard in 2007-2010, so you decided it’s worthless.

You can speculate all you want, and it is just that: “speculation.” The fact is, I do not believe that ANYONE has a product which is 99.6% efficient. Figures don’t lie, but liars figure. Some products work better than others – that’s the truth! But to hold on to old ways of doing things when you have more information and technology available is just plain silly, and that is why I have changed my position, and for the record, I do not believe that ANYONE meets this standard!

To sum it up:
I know of no other media that has been tested by DVGW-512. Some companies say that they have tested theirs to DVGW-512 protocal, but that may not be the most effective protocol anyway, and no one is using it in the real world. We do have access to testing facilities (see photo below) where scientific studies are done on this media and from that testing, we believe that our MEP 4.5 Media is test best media commercially available. The composition is a closely guarded secret and we will not divulge what it is until our industry agrees upon some standard protocol for testing.

We do not engage in deceptive advertising – we do not call our GreenWave system a “water softener” because it is not! It is a conditioner which causes the calcium and magnesium not to stick to surfaces, but it does not cause you to use 40-60% less soap, nor is it “naturally softened water,” as some companies infer. We tell the truth as we best understand it at the time, and as we gain more knowledge, we will always apply that knowledge the best way we can, and if means changing our mind or position, so be it.

A “witch” doctor doesn’t use sound scientific principles. We do, which begs the question: “Which” Doctor am I? Call me names all you want, but I will let my records and the facts speak for themselves.

Testing for scale forming in treated and untreated water

Sarah asked:

“I am also wondering if you still think Pelican NatureSoft does not work. Our water hardness is 595 mg/l and TDS is 702 mg/l. I would prefer a salt free system if any works. Thanks for your help.”

The Water Doctor Replied:

We see very mixed reviews about Pelican, but I can tell you one thing absolutely for certain:

It is not what they say it is and it does not do what they say.

Let me back that comment up:

Right on Pelicans’ website they say:
“The Pelican Natursoft keeps the healthy minerals in the water so you can enjoy naturally softened water.”

Naturally softened water is water that is devoid of minerals, so how can you enjoy naturally softened water when it still has minerals? Naturally softened water is where water hardness is absent however, when the water is directly from precipitation, snowmelt, or regions such as mountains where there are no sedimentary rock formations. Some cities have naturally soft water (Boston, Seattle, Portland, New York, Atlanta, Baltimore and others). You don’t produce naturally softened water. So, right out of the chute, Pelican is giving you erroneous information, which begs the question “If what they say in the beginning is not true, what part do you believe?”

When I read stuff like that, I just shut-down. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!

They go on to state:
“With the NaturSoft system installed you can reduce your soap usage and use more natural soaps with less salts and chemicals.” In fact they say: “Reduces laundry detergents 40-60%”

Again, I am going on record as saying that the above statements are easily proven false. Do a “blind soap test” and you will not be able to see the difference! I have tried it. If I am wrong, I invite Pelican to prove it. Here is your opportunity. Show me that your product does what you say and I will retract my statement.

So, back to the original question. “Do I believe the Pelican works?” The answer is NO, because it is not what they claim and does not do what they claim. There are several internet companies selling products like this. They are “faceless” companies. Who owns them? What are their qualifications? My wife and I are the owners of US Water (in the interest of full disclosure) and we sell the GreenWave systems. I have 38 years of water treatment experience and am one of the highest certified water specialists in the country.

We don’t claim that we have “naturally soft water” nor do we claim they will save you 40-60% on detergents. What we do say is that the GreenWave prevents scale while removing the undesirable contaminants, but leaving the beneficial minerals. You can find out more about the GreenWave salt-free water conditioners here:

http://www.uswatersystems.com/shop/categories/Salt-Free-Systems/

Stuart wrote:
We now have a salt water softener. The salt water softener shortens the life span of the water heater, copper and brass plumbing potable water system and some appliances. We want to know if the salt less water softeners can eliminate hard water minerals and give good quality water. My water heater was 3yrs old and I have already replaced the anode rod and the water heater along with the brass check valve for the water recirculating pump . After reading the comments on this blog we are uncertain of what direction to go. I have looked at Easy Water and Equinox for beginners. We would appreciate any advice you could offer on this matter. We live in Las Vegas, NV and our water is 23 grains hard.

The Water Doctor Replied:

I am sick and tired of companies who make you think they produce soft water without salt. That is PURE BS!

Unless you have low pH, a water softener (using salt) will not shorten the life span of the water heater, copper and brass plumbing potable water system and some appliances. Absolutely not! In fact, it will dramatically increase the life of these things. There is no credible evidence to suggest that a water softener shortens the life of these appliances. However, there is a recent test from Battelle Memorial Institute, one of the most respected scientific research organizations in the world where they say exactly the opposite. Read what Contractor Magazine reported about Battelle’s testing results:

Water softeners extend the service life and maintain the energy efficiency of water heating equipment, showerheads and dishwashers, according to a study performed by Battelle Memorial Institute here. The study was performed for the Water Quality Association, Lisle, Ill.

Battelle reported that for gas storage and instantaneous water heaters, the use of a water softener to eliminate or minimize the scale forming compounds in water would result in the efficiency of the water heater remaining constant over the life of the unit. In contrast, gas storage and instantaneous water heaters using unsoftened water had a noticeable decrease in efficiency over the testing period resulting in higher natural gas use. This natural gas savings associated with the use of softened water will lead to direct energy and economic savings, the researchers said.

Electric storage water heaters did not record any difference in the electricity consumption between units receiving softened or unsoftened water, Battelle noted. The life of the heating element, however, on the electric water heater receiving unsoftened water would be expected to have a shorter life.

Low flow showerheads and faucets using unsoftened water clogged in less than seven days of accelerated life testing, whereas those units using softened water made it through the test without any problems, according to the research organization.

Battelle also noted that the dishwashers and clothes washers on either soft or unsoftened water made it through 30 days of accelerated scale testing, but the units on unsoftened water had noticeable scale buildup on all surfaces that had contact with unsoftened water.

The study tested devices fed with softened and unsoftened water under controlled laboratory conditions designed to accelerate the waterside scaling in the device and quantify the performance efficiency. The project specifically focused on efficiency improvements in household water heaters from use of softened water, and the subsequent effect on performance of fixtures, such as low-flow showerheads and faucets, and appliances, such as laundry washers and dishwashers.

For this study, Battelle tested 30 water heaters supplied by WQA over a 90-day period using a Battelle-developed and WQA approved test protocol. Battelle simultaneously studied the effect of water hardness on performance of faucets, low-flow showerheads, dishwashers, and laundry washers. Using the empirical data generated from the water heater testing and the effect on performance of fixtures and appliances, Battelle developed a differential carbon footprint assessment for homes using unsoftened water vs. softened water.

Battelle set up and tested 10 storage type gas water heaters, 10 storage type electric water heaters, and 10 instantaneous gas water heaters using an accelerated scaling methodology developed at Battelle.

The researchers tested 10 gas-fired 40-gal. water heaters with 38,000 Btuh burners; 10 electric 40-gal. water heaters using 4,500W heating elements; and 10 tankless gas water heaters with 199,000 Btuh burners.

Five of each type of device were tested without any preconditioning of the water supply, and the other five were tested using a water softener to remove hardness constituents from the water supply. Five units were chosen for each of the groupings in order to be able to calculate 95% confidence intervals for the results.

Battelle reported that the electric and gas storage water heaters and the instantaneous gas water heaters on soft water performed well throughout the entire testing period. In contrast, none of the electric or gas storage water heaters or the instantaneous gas water heaters on unsoftened water made it through the entire testing period because the outlet piping system consisting of ½-in. copper pipe, a needle valve and a solenoid valve became clogged with scale buildup. Although the pressure regulators and needle valves were tweaked throughout the testing to try to maintain constant testing conditions, all of the water heaters on unsoftened water were removed from the testing at some point due to the inability to maintain sufficient flow.

The instantaneous water heaters on unsoftened water had to be delimed at 1.6 years of equivalent field service, and the average efficiency of these units dropped from 80% at the start of the test to 72% when they were delimed. After deliming, the average efficiency of these units increased to about 77%.

The average efficiency of the gas storage water heaters on unsoftened water dropped from 70.4% at the start of the test to 67.4% at two years equivalent field service. These data were used to derive equations to predict the efficiency of gas storage water heaters as a function of water hardness and daily household hot water usage. The average rate of scale buildup in the gas storage water heaters on unsoftened water was about 528 gm/yr (1.16-lbs/yr). The average rate of scale buildup in the gas storage water heaters on soft water was about 7 gm/yr (0.01-lbs/yr).

The electric storage water heaters on both softened and unsoftened water were able to maintain a constant efficiency throughout the entire test period because the heating elements were completely submerged in the water, researchers said. However, researchers expect that the life of the heating element in unsoftened water would be shortened due to scale buildup increasing the operating temperature of the element. The average rate of scale buildup in the electric storage water heaters on unsoftened water was about 907 g/yr (2.00-lbs/yr). The average rate of scale buildup in the electric storage water heaters on soft water was about 14 g/yr (0.03-lbs/yr).

Ten low-flow showerheads were installed on the hot water supply coming from the instantaneous gas water heaters; five were tested on unsoftened water and five were tested using softened water. The low-flow showerheads on unsoftened water were removed from testing as they clogged up to the point of not allowing adjustment to a 1.25-GPM flow rate. All of the low-flow showerheads on softened water made it through the testing without any problems. However, the low-flow showerheads on unsoftened water clogged after an average of 3,203 gallons of water flow through them. At the end of testing, the low-flow showerheads were disassembled and the amount of scale buildup was documented with photographs of the components.

Ten low-flow faucets were also installed on the hot water supply coming from the instantaneous gas water heaters; five were tested on unsoftened water and five were tested using softened water. The low-flow faucets on unsoftened water were also removed from testing as they clogged up to the point of not allowing adjustment to a 1.25-GPM flow rate at any time during the test. All of the low-flow faucets on softened water made it through the testing without any problems. The low-flow faucets on unsoftened water clogged after the equivalent of 19 days of water flow through the faucets using an average of about 50-gal. of hot water per day, the researchers reported.

Six Kitchenaid dishwashers and General Electric laundry washers were purchased to test the effect of unsoftened water on the performance of the appliances. Battelle researchers controlled the wash and dry cycles of the dishwashers and the wash cycles of the laundry washers automatically, with the units going through eight cycles every 24 hours. The clothes washers were loaded with 7-lbs. of restaurant hand towels. The dishwashers were loaded with eight place settings of dishes and flatware. At the end of the 30 days of testing, the dishwashers and clothes washers were examined before a teardown analysis was initiated. The units using softened water were almost completely free of any water scale buildup. In contrast, the units using unsoftened water (26 grains per gallon) had noticeable water scale buildup on all of the interior surfaces.

Some salt-free systems work, but I doubt that any of the electronic ones do what they say. In our testing (we have an Easy Water in our Lab), we were less than impressed. Equinox is now evidently Vitasalus and I don’t believe they even claim to de-scale. My research has shown this is the best salt-less system on the market:

http://www.uswatersystems.com/shop/categories/Salt-Free-Water-Conditioners/

Jason wrote:

I just got moved into my new house and boy do we have trouble

I have hardness of 220 whatever that means, and the iron it says .3 is acceptable I have 1.8

Its been a couple weeks and now there is a terrible egg smelling odor. I am also seeing orange in the toilet and in the shower

Soooo with that being said, it sounds like IM gonna have to dump $4000 into a system that I don’t have any advice?

I see lots of used rainsoft water softeners and such for sale in my area for bout $750

I would sure like to get as efficiently as possible. Also I had slightly high manganese and very very faint trace of arsenic.

The Water Doctor Replied:

Jason,

I have good news. If you treat your water right, you should have no problems. Assuming your pH is close to 7, I would recommend a hydrogen peroxide system. It will oxidize the iron, manganese and sulfur all in one shot and most likely bind the arsenic to the iron in the process and remove (or greatly reduce) it as well. Then a simple water softener and reverse osmosis system should give you exceptionally good water.

In cases where iron, manganese and sulfur exist (also arsenic), you simply can’t beat the hydrogen peroxide system. I don’t know how many are in your family or how many baths you have, so I can’t tell you the size. Feel free to call if you need help in sizing. Here are the links:

Hydrogen Peroxide System

Water Softener

Reverse Osmosis System

Brenda asked:

“I have had salt based water softeners in the past and loved them. I now live in a multi-story townhouse, the water source to the unit is in the front, the HOA will not allow a water softener unit in the front. I considered the saltless system because it is smaller and I could possibly hide it, I ‘m still considering it. Another option is to put whatever I get in the garage with the tankless hot water units, meaning only my hot water will be soft. Will this be enough to do anything for my appliances or my skin?”

The Water Doctor Replied:

Putting a water softener only on the hot water is kind of like putting one foot in ice water and the other in boiling water – on the average you won’t like the experience! In your case, I would recommend a saltfree water conditioner. While it may not rise to the level of a water softener (using salt), it will protect your appliances and the carbon filter in the Green Wave Cascade will reduce or remove the chemicals and chlorine which are skin irritants.

Here’s what I would recommend:
http://www.uswatersystems.com/shop/products/10-GPM-GreenWave-Cascade-No%252dSalt,-Non%252dElectric,-No-Waste,-Anti%252dScale-Water-Conditioner.html

Amanda asked this question:

We have very hard water where I live and have had many issues with mineral build-up in our toilets, showers, sinks, etc. I am also a major water snob and strongly prefer to only drink & cook with RO filtered water because our city water is loaded with chlorine (and who knows what else). I have an under the sink Watts 5 step RO system currently that runs to my sink & I also ran a line to my fridge/icemaker, but we are moving to a new home & the fridge will no longer be able to connect to the RO system because of placement.

Would you recommend a softener or a conditioner for really hard water instead of whole house RO and if so, do you have a preferred model of each type to recommend? I think I would rather not deal with salt pellets, etc, but if softening is much better than conditioning, I can deal with it I guess. Thanks for your guidance. I am so worried about making the wrong decision because none of these options are inexpensive–I want to get it right the first time.

The Water Doctor replied:

First of all, I would not generally recommend a whole-house RO system unless there is some other major reason why you would want it. If the water is hard, you would still need to soften it with a water softener or a good salt-free water conditioner anyway. If you are really a major water snob, then I would recommend a hybrid water softener like this:
http://www.uswatersystems.com/shop/categories/Water-Softeners/Fusion-Hybrid-Water-Softeners/

It not only softens the water for the whole house, but also reduces or removes the chlorine and other chemicals. I suspect that you drink RO water because you don’t want the chlorine and chemicals in your drinking water, but did you know that you absorb more chemicals and chlorine through your skin and through inhalation (vaporization) in a 20 minute shower than you could ever drink?

Additionally, modern RO technology has produced residential RO systems for drinking water which waste 80% less water than a regular reverse osmosis system. It is called a “permeate pump” RO and it also makes water faster, makes higher quality water and delivers the water at the same pressure as your incoming line pressure (most RO system lose 35% pressure). Here’s a link to one:
http://www.uswatersystems.com/shop/products/50%252dGPD-US-Water-Systems-High-Pressure-Permeate-Pump-System-w%7B47%7D4-Gallon-Tank.html

Angel asked:

“Shopping around for salt-less systems and found Pelican NaturSoft System has been tested and fulfilled the requirements of the W512. I pulled this statement off there website, what do you think between Pelician and USwatersystems (GreenWave)?

The Water Doctor Replied:

Well, the fact that we (US Water) sell the GreenWave and not Pelican should say enough about it. I also believe that DVGW-512 is of no value. The Pelican system is “Third Party-Tested.” What does that mean? It could mean that they gave someone some money to test it and they said it was great. As it stands right now, there is no Certification, Testing or Validation of Salt-less or Salt-free water conditioning systems by any credible testing facility. The DVGW-512 standard is dubious, at best. (See previous post)

Deanna asks:
I would like to know what causes water to smell like rotten eggs. My neighbor down two doors from me is having this problem. The only source of water to their house comes from a well. I notice this every time I turn their outside faucet on to water her garden and or turn on her faucets within the house. It all smells like rotten egss. They of course do not consume the water.
Can you tell me why and what I can do about eliminating the awful smell of rotten eggs.

The Water Doctor Replied:

It sounds like you have sulfur (hydrogen sulfide) or sulfate-reducing bacteria in your water. Either way, you treat it the same. When treating for Sulfur or Hydrogen Sulfide in your water, it is imperative that a good analysis of the water be performed. Not just for sulfur, but for a number of other contaminants, including hardness, pH, manganese, sulfur, TDS and others. The inter-relationships of the different contaminats will help in chosing the best technology to solve your problem.

With a Detailed Laboratory Analysis, I will be able to confidently recommend the appropriate treatment and will provide a Performance Guarantee with the system. Sulfur is generally measured in parts per million or ppm. It is not considered hazardous to health. Sulfur is considered a secondary or aesthetic contaminant. The present recommended limit for sulfur in water, 0.3 mg/l (ppm), is based on taste and appearance rather than on any detrimental health effect. Private water supplies are not subject to the rules, but the guidelines can be used to evaluate water quality.

Sulfur in wells generally does not cause health problems, but can have the following unpleasant and possibly expensive effects:

* Cause odors
* Corrode plumbing equipment
* Reduce well yields by clogging screens and pipes
* Increase chances of sulfur bacteria infestation

There are many ways by which sulfur can be removed from the water and most operate on the principal of oxidizing the sulfur (oxidation) to convert it from a gas to a solid or undissolved state. Once in the solid state, sulfur can be filtered. There are many ways to do this but I prefer Filox or Hydrogen Peroxide.

Here’s a link to various methods of removing the sulfur or rotten-egg odor:
http://www.uswatersystems.com/shop/categories/Problem-Water/Sulfur-Removal-H2S/